Question: Grammar issues, any tips?

[jinkang.livejournal.com]

I usually try to be careful but it seems there is something fundamentally wrong in my brain. I suppose verbal and online messages put less emphasis on correct grammar, for better or worse, so I don't notice them on daily basis. At least, I haven't been chased by a grammar nazis on the street, as of yet.

Writing, obviously, is a different medium. I have taken grammar courses at school, after school, and even at home. I even read several grammar books for pleasure. Perhaps, pleasure is a bit far fetched.

Last year, I took a course at a continuing education program and got 90%. (This was a summer session, by the way. 40+ hours long) The mark doesn't mean much but the instructor thought I was doing alright. So I rekindled a tiny hope.

Alas, why is it that I can't seem to communicate with my readers? How bad is my grammar? Let's say it's bad enough to confuses readers and make them want to stop reading after page 2. That's on a short story with probably only few more pages to go.

If anyone had a serious issues with grammar, and overcame it, I'd like to know how you did it. Thanks.

Comments

[unchristened.livejournal.com]

I can't really say I've had a lot of grammar troubles - though I'm far from perfect about it - but one thing I always do is have someone beta-read my work and point out any grammar/terminology/coherency mistakes I might have missed. I tend to be a bit of a grammar-nazi, so to speak, so I'm always hard on myself about it, and if there's something I'm not sure on, I look it up or ask someone.

[jinkang.livejournal.com]

I think my issue is that while many writers only need to go back and take a brief look, as their writings come out as they should, my story comes out mangled on the page. First word, and so on.

It's as if my brain and my hands have a conspiracy to butcher what my heart wants to say.

And because my sixth or seventh draft is worse off than other writer's first draft, I can understand why all my beta readers run away.

So I am hoping to learn something if anyone went through this. Because editors won't care what's my native language, if the written piece in English is a #$@#.

[cat-mcdougall.livejournal.com]

Considering I'm on my third draft, you're not alone.

One of the big rules of writing that I've come to accept is just "revise, revise, revise". Some have more revisions than others.

[jinkang.livejournal.com]

Admittedly, due to the time constraint for the resubmission, there were two techniques I learned but didn't try: reading out loud and reading backward, sentence by sentence.

I've never tried them but I believe I'll give it a go. Better than giving up anyway. I wonder if my critique group wouldn't mind reading a revised piece.

[nae-k.livejournal.com]

I was going to ask if your grammar is better when you speak and, if so, suggest you "write" your stories out loud and record them. Then later you could transpose them to your computer.

Otherwise, I agree with the other ideas: read what you've written out loud, use beta readers and critique groups, and revise, revise, revise.

[jinkang.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I'm not sure if my grammar is better or not. Probably not, as I do notice my self mixing up pronouns and using wrong tense of the verb now and then.

Difficulty is reducing the mistakes I do notice...specially in writing.

I think this discussion is helping me in realizing that written works, unlike spoken words, give me another chance to revise before I send them out.

[louderback.livejournal.com]

Consider taking English as a Second Language if you can. They should discuss fundamentals of grammar and techniques of good communication as welll

[jinkang.livejournal.com]

Actually, I did consider. They wouldn't let me in. Which is why I took a grammar course (http://2learn.utoronto.ca/uoft/search/publicCourseSearchDetails.do?method=load&cms=true&courseId=675421) instead.

Though I suppose I could try going to a local church or some community centres around the neighborhood.

Is that what you did?

[wylde-writer.livejournal.com]

I feel for your frustrating situation.

One thing I would look for is very specific analysis of what and how and why what you write is confusing or off in grammar. I know a lot of critique groups and readers leave their commentary at the level of "You lost me here when Joe does x..." - but that is not sufficient feedback for the writer to figure out how and why. You need someone who can go through your text sentence by sentence, and point out in each bit of sentence structure precisely what is unclear.

For instance, if took this sentence in my work:

"When he gave him the book, he didn't know if he should read it."

- I would expect grammar critique that points out that it is unclear which "he" is meant in the clause following the comma. In this case, it would be more clear to substitute a character's name for one of the "he" pronouns.

- and so on, throughout the work.

You are probably making certain types of mistakes again and again - and they can be relatively subtle, like the unclear pronouns above. Once the specific type of grammar confusion is pointed out in that kind of detail, it is easier for you to see where you have a habit of thought that leads to confusing sentence structure, and can learn instead to phrase things more clearly.

Ultimately, the final test for writing clearly is to ask if each and every sentence has an absolutely clear meaning, and just 1 meaning. Can it be read and understood in only one way? That is ideally what you want to achieve (unless you're intentionally working with ambiguity, but that's something I'd let wait until the basics are down). If someone could take your sentence more than one way, then its meaning is unclear.

For this purpose, the technique of reading each sentence out loud is useful, as is reading from the back to the front. That separates out the meaning of a single sentence from the thrust of paragraph, and lets you hear (or see) more clearly if the meaning is singular and clear.

In the alternative you might be able to find a writing partner (not a group) who is willing to provide some of the detailed sentence/paragraph analysis of the sort I describe above.

Good luck with your efforts. It is a surmountable thing, but requires that you be able to figure out where you're going wrong in the written construction. Your shorter conversational messages (like here in this LJ entry) are obviously fine in construction, so you're not that far away from your goal. :)

[jinkang.livejournal.com]

I am thinking of this great application idea.. haha. Not sure whether I will detour from my writing but I thought perhaps I should make an application where you open the 'text' version of a story.

Then the program either randomly selects a sentence (but go through them all) or select from the bottom to top.

Then it show the sentence on the screen. And only that sentence. Perhaps it should highlight 'verb' as well.

The goal would be for the user to NOT change the meaning, as it may disrupt the flow, but make the sentence clear and, well, grammarically correct.

Is there any such applications? Hmm... I wonder how long it will take me to code this. A week I think...to perfect it in C# or C... hmm... or javascript even.

[wylde-writer.livejournal.com]

while it should be possible to parse out basic grammar structures in that manner,, I don't think it's possible to (quickly) code a prog that picks apart more complex structures and things that involve judgment calls and subtle rules of usage.

In the example of my earlier post, for instance, in the sentence with the unclear use of pronouns: grammatically, there's nothing wrong with that sentence, so a program that analyses on that basis alone wouldn't spot anything wrong there. Even whether or not the pronoun definitions are unclear to some extent depends on the context of the preceding sentences. Programs are less good at contextual assessment of that sort.

Also, ultimately for one's own writing, it's critical to develop an internal feel for the language, to have that in one's head and know internally what "sounds right". The only way to get there, I think, is to do that kind of sentence analysis by one's self, the old fashioned way.

[jinkang.livejournal.com]

Yeah...I did manage to waste an hour last night but stopped after I realized the same thing.

Better that I 'learn,' than to teach a program. :)

[davien.livejournal.com]

write shorter, simpler sentences. When you feel compelled to use a comma, find a way to use a period instead.

[jinkang.livejournal.com]

Seems my story is missing a lot of articles and modifiers. I'm gonna put them on my 'editing check list' and hopefully correct it there.

And definitely write simple and clear sentences. :)

[amethystrse.livejournal.com]

Your grammer sounds fine in this post. Maybe you have a problem like I have where your thoughts run faster than your fingers can type. I have to really focus sometimes to get the sentences to be good.

*shrugs*

[fifi-bonsai.livejournal.com]

Actually, this bit's a little weird:
Let's say it's bad enough to confuses readers and make them want to stop reading after page 2.

I'm not excellent at grammar either, so I feel your pain. I have to think about it so much that it stunts me and cuts off my flow. :DDDDDDDD My muse flounces off in the face of terrible use of commas and the like. I think, though, that the more you write and the more you read (I've heard people say you should read twice as much as you write) the more you get a natural feel for language. The mechanics just start to assimilate and you don't have to work as hard to get it right. So my advice? Read, read, read and try to notice not only what the author says but how he or she says it. Also write a million crappy sentences before you write a few good ones.

Recently, I saw this book and it looks interesting: Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_&_Leaves). I'm thinking of getting it myself.

[jinkang.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the tip! I think the trick is to mind what I'm reading. I must have read thousand books by now, but because I used to just read for pleasure, I never really noticed the styles or grammars.

Just yesterday, I was reading Ursula Le Guin's The Other Wind again, and realized how simple yet powerful each sentences were. It's important to read for pleasure from time to time; but for me, I think I need to learn a bit more from the masters and pay attention to their works.

Perhaps everyone else has been doing that; it's new to me.

For now, I am trying to 'imitate/learn' Ursula and Terry Goodkind's style by reading their work a sentence at a time. For someone who finishes a novel in a day or two, it's a slow pace but I'm hoping it will help--something I should have done a decade ago, I admit.